515 e

**Old Guy** · July 16th, 2007, 03:12 AM

I would like to see Neodymium used to improve the 515- duplicating them in another magnet seems a waste since there is no 515 shortage.

Altecs can be improved on- there aren't the pinnacle yet, although they may have been the best in their day. I'd like to see the same type of sound- with the idea towards getting that last ounce of performance not reached yet-

You would have to define what you want the 515 to do- the short "mid bass" type horn/bass reflex is obsolete by today's standards.

Probably would have to be a couple of versions- one to retrofit into older boxes, another for newer designs.

Many mid bass units are using 12's these days, or even 10's. Driver technology has changed.

I submit if you set out to duplicate an older dirver, that's all you will do. When Altec designed the 288-G, they wanted to improve the 288. That's what I want to see- improvements not duplication.

On the subject of Neo- with the heat issues- has anyone considered Peltiers for cooling? Community has a series of speakers that pumped air around the magnet assemblies from outside the box, a seperate sealed system.

**Old Guy** · July 16th, 2007, 04:26 AM

Sadly making tubes a lot has been lost- the Russians and Chinese make the majority of the worlds tubes now- and neither is at the level Amperex was. Or Mullard, or...

Amperex was part of Philips, who made millions owning the patent for the cassete tape and bought a number of the best manufacturers in Europe with those profits. I used to sell a lot of Amperex speaker drivers too- there was a 12" 3 way kit for $20 dealer cost! Wasn't Altec, but wasn't bad either. This is like 1970.

Russian tubes tend to be better than Chinese BTW.

**scott fitlin** · July 16th, 2007, 04:51 AM

Yeah, He gave me Sovtek, and also a Czech made tube also. The Czech tube wasnt bad, but both were really colored compared to the Amperex.

RCA 12AX7A,s with the black grid and halo getters are hot too!

However, the Amperex I have, West German manufacture, has THE BEST midbass and clean top end of them all.

GM · July 16th, 2007, 02:40 PM

Originally posted by scotty j:
WHAT did they used to know 40 years ago, that no one, or very few, know today?

Nothing AFAIK. The main differences AFAIK is one of worn out tooling and a small captive 'audience', so there's been no incentive to make new tooling beyond what's been required to keep production going, etc.. This attitude is slowly changing since the DIY community and all the small businesses it has spawned is increasing demand/willingness to pay the high prices required to fund new tooling as witnessed by WE's relatively recent re-commitment to its 300B.

Once all the old tubes are gone though, I fear there will be few quality replacements since there's just not going to be enough demand IMO. Anyway, our hearing is relatively crude compared to most creatures in nature and processing power/BW is rapidly approaching (already here?) where a digital equivalent of an analog occurrence can be replicated with enough resolution that we can't tell the difference on even a subjective level, so at some point I guess vacuum tubes will be relegated to being nothing more than weird looking light bulbs while a computer processes the all digital signal chain.

GM · July 16th, 2007, 04:06 PM

Originally posted by Old Guy:
I hadn't considered the "worn out tolling"- just figured it was **** new tooling.

High Tube amp prices and computerised tooling may combine to make small runs of precision items profitable- that would be the only hope.

WE seemed to think so, all new tooling for the 300B had to be very expensive and it's reflected in its pricing.

WRT old tooling, Cutler-Hammer was favored with a controls contract back in the late '60s - early '70s that got some USA made tube brands up and running in Israel, Mexico, and Nigeria as the manufacturers divested themselves of the cost of maintaining expensive facilities for a rapidly declining market that had always been mostly geared to the military. Consumer products typically were components that didn't meet mil-spec and 'branded' names a notch below that. the J.A. Pan company turned it into an art form though, with a QA system that allowed many 'brands' to be created from one design.

Anyway, by the time this tooling made it to Asia, China, it was in pretty tough shape judging by the number of folks who would have to buy a box full just to get a few that lasted beyond the initial burn-in.

GM · July 16th, 2007, 04:31 PM

Originally posted by scotty j:
No disrespect GM, just I dont agree with you, but I do respect your right to your opinion!

None taken, but you seem to miss my point, which is that it's been proven that our hearing acuity is such that at some finite point we can't tell the difference between 'live and Memorex' so to speak, just as we can trick the eyes with 3D photos or our taste buds with synthetics.

DSP has come a long way in a very short period of time and the fact that apparently there's not enough market demand to offer cutting edge technology to the general public at affordable prices except in the form of various types of 'enhanced' stereo and making truly cheap/horrible sounding systems acceptable to the 'great unwashed' doesn't mean it can't sound as good, or better, as the best of the old analog systems.

**scott fitlin** · July 16th, 2007, 04:45 PM

Originally posted by GM:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by scotty j:
WHAT did they used to know 40 years ago, that no one, or very few, know today?

Nothing AFAIK. The main differences AFAIK is one of worn out tooling and a small captive audience.<hr /></blockquote>So, even with proper tooling, requisite know how and engineering, the materials are still the same as they used 40 years ago?

Metallurgy has advanced, and that means the composition of many metals used to manufacture products are in fact different than it would have been in 1967, and AFAIK, anything that is in the signal path imparts its own audible sonic characteristic to the signal, be it good or bad, depending on the individuals perception of whatever things are.

Then, the other side of the coin, is today there are so many chemicals, and substances that can no longer be used, and without certain components, things just dont work quite the same exact way they once did.

I can tell you for sure, I do not see anyone banging down Harmans door for home versions of Vertec.

But, years ago, both JBL and Altec made consumer versions of their famous stufio monitors and theater speakers, and to this day, people love the Model 19,s, Magnificents, and L300,s! In spite of their known deficiencies.

I still think a bit differntly than you do. You feel that the market for these items has dried up, people got wiser. I think that as the supplies of parts, and products dried up, and new companies couldnt duplicate the exact same sound as years ago, the people got fed up with things claimed to be not only as good, but even better, but wasnt really.

You know, with tubes, each brand has its own unique tonal charactristics, and I completely understand that. But, the thing is that not only I, but everyone I demo for, ALWAYS perfers the sound of vintage NOS tubes, of whatever brand, the tubes from the 60,s just sound superior to whats made today. In the same way I prefer the sound of certain speakers, despite the flaws, to todays modern marvels with their ruler flat response, and almost perfect linearity.

**scott fitlin** · July 16th, 2007, 04:52 PM

Originally posted by GM:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by scotty j:
No disrespect GM, just I dont agree with you, but I do respect your right to your opinion!

None taken, but you seem to miss my point, which is that it's been proven that our hearing acuity is such that at some finite point we can't tell the difference between 'live and Memorex' so to speak, just as we can trick the eyes with 3D photos or our taste buds with synthetics.

DSP has come a long way in a very short period of time and the fact that apparently there's not enough market demand to offer cutting edge technology to the general public at affordable prices except in the form of various types of 'enhanced' stereo and making truly cheap/horrible sounding systems acceptable to the 'great unwashed' doesn't mean it can't sound as good, or better, as the best of the old analog systems.<hr /></blockquote>OK, THIS I will accept. I only know that the things available to us today, claimed to outdo what we had yesterday, just simply does not, according to my ears.

To me, TODAY we have LOUDER! Which is not neccesarily always BETTER!

But the manufacturers are constantly telling us it IS better, and we NEED More power, and then we go get MORE power, then they come out with newer products, and once again, you still dont have ENOUGH power.

But its what they have to do to make speakers that can hold up to all this power that kills the clarity and fine detail, and sweetness, I think!

**Old Guy** · July 16th, 2007, 05:25 PM

Blind tests are critical. Agreed many things can't pass them- I'm one of the biggest advocates in their favor.

I will make a bet- I can identify an Amperex versus Chinese 12ax7 8 out of ten - with the stipulation we use my guitar and amp I am familiar with.

The Chinese tubes don't get it at all for me- Sovteks are better for Blues, make my Altecs sound more like JBL's. A bit grittier, with an edge.
But for clean straight out stuff- the Amperex is good, RCA's are too. Telefunkens are fine but not common. I suspect Telefunkens are really Amperex- they look alike. Could just be common parts sources.
I really suspect there are waveform differences, but I haven't done any checking.

GM has it 100% again though- for the mass market it's going to be awful junk made acceptable by DSP.

I was brought a set of powered speakers to fix. Woofer had a 2 ohm coil- to get the last ounce out of a pitiful PWM amp. Everything underbuilt to the point of silliness- I told the customer in all good conscience that he had been ripped off and I couldn't fix them with a clear conscience. I wanted nothing to do with them. Sadly- that's where audio is headed. And to the mass market- this stuff sounds acceptable.

**scott fitlin** · July 16th, 2007, 05:47 PM

Hey Old Guy, remember I told you my Amperex,s wewre made in W. Germany? They were made for Amperex, to Amperex specification, in the Telefunken factory!

Thread: 515 e

Thread Tools

Display

Bookmarks

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions